Homepage // Championing Justice: A Personal Injury Podcast // Episode 20: Recruiting and Retaining Associates in the Legal Job Market
Episode 20: Recruiting and Retaining Associates in the Legal Job Market
The following is a transcript of Episode 20 of Championing Justice. You can listen to the full episode here, or watch it on YouTube.
Darl:
Thank you for listening to the Championing Justice podcast. My name is Darl Champion. I am a personal injury lawyer in Atlanta, Georgia, and I own my own law firm called The Champion Firm.
This podcast is aimed at personal injury lawyers and talks about a variety of topics, including everything from working up your case to how to manage and run a law firm, and that’s what we’re going to be talking about today with Steve Stone.
Steve is a legal recruiter and we are going to be discussing all things employment related to lawyers. That includes how to find lawyers, how to train them, how to retain them, compensation. It’ll be from both an associate’s perspective and what associates can do to build their brand and build their career and position themselves for success, and also from the law firm owner’s perspective. Thanks for joining us, Steve.
Steve:
Yeah, thanks for having me. Great to be here.
Darl:
So tell us a little bit about what you do.
Steve:
Yeah, so I am a former practicing lawyer. I went to law school down in Florida and practiced for a few years in Tampa. Moved back up to Atlanta to be with family and while I was awaiting my Georgia bar results, I went in to visit a recruiter to see what I might be able to do afterwards and got recruited to be a recruiter.
Darl:
Interesting.
Steve:
And that was 2000. In 2000, that was when the first major pay bumps with the large firms were coming. So the pitch to me was, alright, the large firms in Atlanta are paying $60,000 for their starting associates. I think Troutman may have gone to $75,000 and Alston jumped them to a $100,000 and that became the set. And they said, go to Birmingham, go to Chattanooga, people are billing the same amount of hours, bring them to Atlanta. It would be like shooting fish in a barrel. And it was for about six months until the dot com crashes happened.
Darl:
Interesting.
Steve:
Yeah, so I’ve been recruiting for, this is year 26. I place lawyers at all levels with law firms and corporate legal departments. I’m also a certified coach. I’ve been doing that for about 16, 17 years. So I work with some law firms on career transition and I work with individual lawyers on career issues as well as new partners on management, leadership, time management issues, things like that.
Darl:
So you mentioned the pay scale. I think it’s probably shocking for some people to hear. Granted that was 25 years ago, which is also hard to believe. When you got into recruiting, was that with an agency or how does that work? I mean, are you getting paid a commission?
Steve:
Yeah, so I did. I went with one of Atlanta’s top legal recruiting shops. They’re still around. At that point in time I was paid a salary and then a commission on every placement. That’s generally how it’s done. Some it’s draw, cover, commission, some it’s commission only. So it just depends.
Darl:
Now, you mentioned that you went to law school. How long did you work as a practicing attorney before you got into recruiting?
Steve:
Close to four years.
Darl:
And what was that? Was that transactional litigation?
Steve:
It was a mixed bag. It was some transactional work, a little bit of bankruptcy, like chapter 11 reorg and some soft IP copyrights, trademarks, tech stuff.
Darl:
Interesting. Well, and you mentioned the law firms that you place people with. You work with law firms of all sizes. And just so our listeners know, we’ve used Steve as well. I can’t remember how we got connected. It may have even been on LinkedIn, I can’t remember.
But we’ve used Steve to find lawyers for us and one of the things that I think is beneficial of using a recruiter, and we’ll talk a little bit more later about all the ins and outs of finding lawyers, but recruiters can not only help vet the candidates, but they can reach out to people who are at law firms to try to get them. So instead of the lawyer cold calling a bunch of people, the recruiter can do that for you. And so I think that’s a tremendous benefit. How much are you working with firms that are doing litigation versus transactional, regardless of what side they’re on?
Steve:
Yeah, I mean it’s relationship-based, so it’s, I wouldn’t say I focus in any particular area and I like to work with smaller and medium-sized firms. I work with a lot of Am law firms, but the thing is a lot of recruiters work with a lot of Am law firms. So at this point in my career when I have an opportunity to work with a firm exclusively and really get to know their owners and their partners and really how they do business, I find those searches very interesting.
Darl:
Now, one of the things I want to talk about is just the current state of the market and obviously we’re here in Atlanta. What are some of the things that you’re seeing in the Atlanta area? Any trends?
Steve:
So everything is cyclical, right? Giving an example: the pandemic hit for about three months. It was dead. Nobody thought there would be any hiring for the remainder of the year.
Darl:
Forever.
Steve:
Forever, pretty much. And then the fourth quarter happened, and I think that’s when SPACs came into existence, special purpose acquisition companies for the transactional side and m and a private equity, anything transactional went crazy that happened and there was an insatiable appetite for transactional until the fourth quarter of 2023, and then it went dead because tech companies started laying people off. And so there was an overhiring, it went to litigation.
We are now swinging back a little bit towards transactional litigation is still hot and intellectual property, labor and employment, a lot of cybersecurity, privacy stuff, and regulatory issues I think are going to be big going into 2025 as the new administration comes in.
Darl:
Interesting. Yeah. From the perspective of salaries and benefits, we talked a little bit about the, was it $60,000? Was the market in, I guess the late 90s, how competitive is that now in Atlanta with what firms are paying and they’re trying to one-up each other? Is there an arms race on that still?
Steve:
The arms race has been going forever. Top market. So these are New York market firms, but there’s more than a handful in Atlanta because just to give you some context, firms used to basically look at different markets. So if you were in a major market, you got paid what the New York folks paid, but if you were in a smaller market, they had a different scale.
It’s more uniform now. There’s still some of that going on, but it is more uniform right now. A first-year lawyer at a Top Am law firm is making a base of $225,000 up to $435,000 for an eighth year. And then you have all the bonuses attending to that if they hit their billables, which I think rang anywhere from like $15,000 to $115,000 for an eighth year. And then oftentimes, depending on the economy, there are special bonuses as well. It’s pretty expensive.
Darl:
So I graduated from law school at Mercer in 2007. I knew I wanted to be a plaintiff’s lawyer, so I really didn’t do the summer associate thing, but the firms were paying a ton of money. What I thought back then, and for new associates back then, I want to say King and Spalding in 2007 was maybe $145,000. Sounds about right. That sounds about right. But they’re in the two hundreds now?
Steve:
Yeah, $225,000.
Darl:
Wow.
Steve:
$225,000. And you have, like I said, it’s a little bit more than a handful of firms that kind of are locked up all the way up. And then other Am law firms, they’ll have, they’ll pay their first years $225,000 kind of as to show in the windows to recruit first-year law students. But then there’s more compression as you go up the scale.
Darl:
It’s like selling your milk for cheap at the grocery store. We were talking about that the other day. Try and get ’em in the door, and so there’s more compression. Well, that’s interesting.
Now, I imagine there’s been a ton of changes just since 2019 because of the pandemic in terms of work structure and that sort of thing. But what are some major differences that you’ve noticed over the last 10 years, whether it’s compensation, how long people are staying in jobs, whatever it is, what are some changes that you’ve seen over the last decade?
Steve:
Yeah, increased stratification and consolidation. Now we’re talking again mostly about Am law firms, so if you want me to talk more specifically about other size firms, but most of the press and media is on the in Am law firms. But yeah, you’ve seen a lot more mergers. You’ve seen an increase in group hiring instead of individual partner hiring firms looking to leverage and lift out entire groups and plug them in to add as much revenue to the bottom line as possible because there’s just been a flurry of increased movement. The free agency game amongst associates and partners is like, I’ve never seen it.
Darl:
Well, you mentioned the Am law firms, but even in the insurance defense industry, practice groups, and I don’t know, do you do much work with insurance defense firms?
Steve:
I work with a couple of colleagues that do, but I don’t do a lot myself.
Darl:
Yeah, I mean, what I’ve seen a lot of is the partners bouncing around to different law firms and taking their business with them and the associates with them, but then also a lot of associates leaving quickly.
Now, I’ve left a defense firm after a very short period of time. I was there six or seven months before I went to go be a plaintiff’s lawyer, and that was 2009 to 2010. That was unheard of. Then for somebody to stay that short period of time, it was typically two years. But even then, probably 20 years ago, two years was a very short period of time. Now it seems like it’s three to six months sometimes.
Steve:
Since the pandemic, there’s been an increase in movement. I think a big part of that, it was an ability to create any stickiness of integration with folks. I saw a number of people that went to new firms and then went back to their old firms, which you almost never saw.
And depending on the law of supply and demand depends on how picky firms are going to be about that. So we’re swinging back to more of a traditional, I don’t want to see people that are spending a year and a half, two years at every firm.
But what’s interesting is you have mid-level to senior lawyers now who’ve been out since 2019, 2020. That’s their normal, they’re used to that. They’re used to changing jobs or at least looking at opportunities every couple of years. So as a recruiter, I have to counsel them. You’re not going to be able to keep jumping. The market’s not like that anymore. I think what I’ve seen a lot of, you asked what’s changed over the past 10 years.
There really hasn’t been a recession in the past 10 years. So you have very senior lawyers that haven’t seen any kind of a down market now maybe in their particular practice area because different things cycle, but a full-scale downturn we haven’t seen. So I think it’s getting more and more difficult to make equity partner mean. That’s been, since I got out, since you got out, there’s been a huge rise in non-equity ranks for retention purposes, but also for business development. A partner title goes a long way towards allowing a lawyer to develop business rather than being a senior associate or a counsel.
And then smaller and mid-size firms rising. Was it rising tide raises all boat. Everybody’s had to adjust in some form or fashion if they want to continue to get the talent that they’re used to
Darl:
Getting. Yeah, I mean, if you’re a boutique firm, whether have institutional clients or if you’re representing consumers like a plaintiff’s boutique firm, if you’re trying to get top talent and you’re competing with firms that are setting a floor of $225,000 for entry levels, it makes it tough. And that’s one of the things that I’ve noticed over the last 10 years that I’ve had my firm is it is harder to recruit lawyers from established law firms.
Again, even if it’s not one of the big Am law firms, it might be an insurance defense firm in town because they’re competing with those firms, so they’re paying more money. And the other thing that I’ve noticed is I think this is just a culture thing right now with text messages and you can order on Uber Eats and have food immediately at your house or Instacart and groceries are there…
Steve:
Immediate gratification.
Darl:
Immediate gratification. And so people aren’t willing to make the sacrifices and take the pay cuts to work their way up into a long-term fit. Whereas 20 years ago, for example, to be a plaintiff’s attorney. Yeah, I mean, you took a very low base salary with a high commission structure and you looked at it as a great opportunity.
Now when I interview lawyers, they want both. They want the high compensation and the high bonus, and it’s like, wait a second. It doesn’t really work that way. And I don’t know, I mean, I imagine it’s just going to get worse and get worse from the law firm owner’s perspective on the plaintiff side or even just a small firm side to hire and recruit top talent.
Steve:
It is, I mean, what it comes down to is how do you differentiate yourself
But also finding candidates. And these candidates need to hopefully have good mentors and counselors that are saying, listen, compensation is certainly a factor. We all need to make money, take care of our families, but it should not be a dispositive factor, particularly when you’re a younger lawyer.
You need to be looking, I always tell lawyers three distinct timeframes, short, medium, and, and looking at 10 years out, try to reverse engineer your career and the different rungs and moves you’re going to make. You’re unlikely to stay at the next place for the entirety of your career. So how is that going to be as a jumping off point for where you want to go next? But just thinking in the moment you’re bound to maybe get something that appears nice and new and shiny wears off pretty quickly and can have dramatic effect on your career overall.
Darl:
And a lot of this ties into something you mentioned, which is mentoring, mentoring and training. And it creates this cycle where the law firms, they have to make so much money to pay the people, the salaries that they’re paying them. They don’t have as much time for mentoring and training and mentoring. The lack of mentoring and training leads people to leave
And people leaving leads, the law firm owners to not want to mentor and train. I mean, I’ve heard that from law firm owners where they say, I keep training these people and they just keep leaving. I’m just not going to do it anymore. And it’s like, well, what are you going to do? A common thing that I have people tell me is, well, aren’t you worried that you’re going to train them and teach them all this stuff? And then they leave? It’s like, well, I mean that can happen. I mean, they’re not indentured servants. They don’t have to stay here. But if you want to have a law firm that’s more than just you, you’ve got to run that risk. Have you seen problems with mentoring and training and is that a new thing? Has it gotten worse?
Steve:
I mean, absolutely. In large firms it’s rare to find the partner that really likes to mentor and train. The only way I think to fix that problem is to tie it somehow to their compensation. And I think that’s a big differentiator that small and medium-sized firms should lean into
Is we can train you and offer you more substantive work sooner rather than later. We’re not going to throw you in the deep end of the pool, or we might kind of, but there’ll be someone there to support you. But to your point, and being someone that’s had people work with me in the past, if I don’t train them that I don’t feel comfortable delegating anything to them, they’re not going to treat my clients or handle my candidates the same with such care as I would.
So I get that it’s a double-edged sword, but to me it’s pure necessity. And so what it comes down to really is what’s your hiring process to ensure you have the best probability of getting someone that if you do pour into them, that they’re going to stay?
Darl:
Yeah, I have sort of a prediction on that, and I think you kind of see it in college sports with the NIL. The smaller mid-size schools are the opportunities for players that maybe weren’t heavily recruited to go and play, and then after a year or two, they’re going to the big school to get their NIL money. I think you’re going to see the same thing in law firms.
I think you’re going to see lawyers that maybe didn’t do as well in law school, go to smaller firms, get a ton of experience, and then they’re into these more established law firms for the higher pay. And the law firms may view the big law firms may view the smaller firms as the training grounds that this is where you’re going to learn and we’re just going to poach people from there, but we will see how that plays out.
Let’s talk a little bit about your advice to lawyers, because I know that’s something you mentioned that you coach lawyers and you give them advice. Do you have any recommendations for how long lawyers need to stay at a firm before they start looking? I mean, do you have, don’t even talk to me unless it’s this amount of time…?
Steve:
No, no. I mean it’s not…
Darl:
Do you have a rule of thumb?
Steve:
It’s not one size fits all.
When people call me if they’ve been at their firm for 10 months to a year, I mean listen, there’s conventional wisdom. You never leave a job without a job unless, I mean, if it’s having such an impact and there are a lot of mental health issues in legal profession, if it’s having such an impact on you in other ways, then the conventional wisdom’s out the window and you’ve got to do what’s best for you. But really I think when you notice that either it’s a dead end, there’s been, and I’ve talked about this in the past, a pattern or false or empty promises, oh, we’re going to put you up for partner next year, or yeah, this is going to happen, and it just never happens. Or if there’s just no, if you see a dead end somewhere, no origination credits being shared with you, you can’t bring in matters enough to sustain, Hey, I’m a 3-year-old person and I’m going to try to go out and develop business at 800 an hour.
Probably not going to work for me. But I think the biggest thing is just not keeping your head in the sand and at least a couple times a year thinking, taking some time to really just sit down and think about your career and where you are. It’s hard to do because you’ve got so many hours to bill and you’re so busy and there’s so many demands in and outside of the office. But what I do see more than anything, if you ask what’s a rule of thumb is don’t wait until you’re a seventh year associate and then go out on your own or call a recruiter and say, where can I go? Replace me? At that point, there are some questions that prospective employers will have. Were you not partner in material? What were you doing wrong? What’s going wrong here? And at that point, you’re already so expensive that economically it just doesn’t really work
Darl:
Out. Golden handcuffs, I mean, that’s a common thing that people have. And the longer you’re there, the more money you’re making, you’re likely to potentially be more likely to be in a family situation where maybe you have other mouths to feed. And it makes it harder to leave. I think I constantly hear from people who say, next year I’m going to do this, or next year I’m going to do that. And it’s like, why are you waiting? I mean, you’re waiting like five years and maybe it’s, I’m just naturally impatient. Inertia.
Steve:
Yeah, it’s the most powerful force and lawyers just get stuck in it.
Darl:
And I mean, particularly lawyers, I mean, some people are just really, really risk averse and they don’t want to take the chance and it’s like, well, what if I leave? And it’s like, well, you’re not happy in your situation. Why are you staying? The one thing that’s interesting to me, while we’re talking about from the lawyer’s perspective, and you mentioned mental health issues and that kind of thing, I’m sure that partners are now behaving better than they have in the past, but there’s a lot of stories of people working for nightmare partners and just mental and emotional abuse. Is that something you see getting better? I mean, are you still hearing stories that shock you?
Steve:
It is getting better, and I’m still hearing stories that shock me. It depends on the firm. And do they really have a policy where they just won’t accept that or do they have that policy? But if you have a 15 million book of business, you kind of look the other way.
Darl:
Any shocking stories you can share with us without breaching any confidentiality?
Steve:
I don’t know any specific fact patterns to share, but it’s exactly what you said. It’s just lack of respect. It’s mental emotional abuse, and there’s still just a lot of sexual harassment going on.
Darl:
The subject of lawyers, you mentioned one mistake is just staying too long. Any other common mistakes that you see lawyers make in their career
Steve:
Getting pigeonholed in a practice that just is not going to be a long-term fit for them?
Darl:
Do you have any advice of, I mean, let’s say a lawyer is in a practice area that they don’t want to be pigeonholed in. Any advice? Is it changing firms is asking for diversification of work?
Steve:
Well, you have to know when to put your head out at your firm, whether it’s going to be chopped off or not. But yeah, I mean you’ve got to try to get out If it’s something that you can never get a love or passion for or any other reason that it’s just not going to be long-term sustainable. I’m not saying it’s going to be easy to pivot practice areas and recruiters, unless it’s a wide hot market in an insatiable demand, sometimes my clients would be willing to retool someone, but that doesn’t happen very often, so it’s going to take a lot of elbow grease and working your own network and really getting out there and maybe taking a step or two back
Darl:
Biggest, I think that’s the biggest thing, right? You’re going to have to maybe take a pay cut, maybe start at a lower level to get experience in a new practice area. And that’s something that I wanted to talk to you about was switching practice areas. And I know you’ve placed some people with me, one of whom was on the defense side, and I’ll tell you, one of the common mistakes that I hear or see is just a lack of willingness to start over or to start at an entry-level because they’re, again, they’re at the firm, they’re making that amount of money and they want to keep making it, and then they want the bonuses that come with it.
I think there’s also a misconception among plaintiffs or among defense lawyers about plaintiff’s lawyers, which is that it’s somehow easy to make money and it’s not, I mean, it’s really hard. It’s a lot of work and they think they’re going to come over and they’re just going to send some demands and get the cases and it’s like, no, you got to actually work and do a lot of work. Do you have any advice for any lawyers that might be on, whether it’s the defense side or maybe in a commercial litigation firm or an Am law firm looking to be a plaintiff’s lawyer? Any advice for them? Anybody’s listening,
Steve:
And I’m working with a few of these folks. Folks right now, get out of your own way and look beyond an immediate one or two year window. Look at the big picture. If this is what you really want to do, it takes some sacrifices, but, and if you come from a defense side, you may all in wise, maybe first year, if you’re a fourth year at an insurance defense firm, you might even basically lateral out all in. But the second and third year, if you’re good at what you do, you’re going to kill it.
Darl:
Yeah, I’ll tell you. So when I went to go work at a plaintiff’s firm, I took a $33,000 pay cut, $33,000 a year pay cut. That was a tough conversation to have with my wife, especially because I went from law school to clerking for a federal judge. Pay was okay. It was in Macon, it was, cost of living is reasonable, but compared to what the first year associates were making, it was kind of comparable to then, oh, hey, we finally got a good job making good money to six months later being, I’m actually leaving to go take a 33,000 a year pay cut. But again, you’ve got to look at your career beyond one year, three year, five years.
Steve:
Absolutely,
Darl:
It’s 10, 20 years. If I had never made that switch, I would potentially still be at a defense firm. Miserable. I’d have less hair than I do now. I mean, it’s already thinning on the back. It’d be even worse. You mentioned the salaries and the pay and how it works. What I tell people is your first year, you’re probably going to make less money. You could break even kind of like what you said, but your first year you’re probably going to make less money. And it depends on your comp structure and that sort of thing. But if you’ve got some sort of commission or incentive-based structure, it’s going to take a while to get those cases resolved and to get ’em through the pipeline. Your second year, you might again break even or do a little bit better. But where I’ve seen people really take off is that three to four, five year mark.
I mean, we’ve got an attorney with us now who’s been with us for over four years and last year at a phenomenal year. But it took a while to get there. And so I think people, this is what leads to the job hopping. People go to a firm, they’re there for a year or two, they get impatient. They want that instant gratification. They then leave to go to another law firm. And it’s like my LinkedIn is constantly filled with people that are changing jobs every one to two years.
I’ll tell you, it’s particularly bad on the high volume settlement mill side with these advertising firms. It’s like if you look at some of their resumes, some of the people in Atlanta have worked with all of them. I know I’ve seen it. There’re three or four. And it’s the same thing with staff. And they bounce around because they want that instant gratification. One question I wanted to ask you, and this is a broad one, what do you think law schools could be doing better to prepare new lawyers?
Steve:
And I’ve actually had talks with law schools about this. I think it’s incumbent upon them to introduce some facet of their coursework about the business of law.
Darl:
Yep. I will tell you a funny story. So at Mercer, I took a law school called How to Start and Manage a law firm, and it was taught by a lawyer who did not know how to manage a law firm. And it was kind of known that this person is the most absent-minded person in the world and knows nothing about it. And that was our professor. So there you go.
Steve:
I’m surprised they had a class.
Darl:
Well, it’s better than nothing, I suppose the book was good. It was, I think what did we read? Was it J Berg’s book? That’s a good book. I dunno if you’ve read that one. How to start and Manage a law firm. It’s pretty lengthy book. It’s very old school. I mean, it’s been around for probably 30 years with different updates, but that’s a good one.
All right, so let’s talk about the employer side of things. Sure. I hear all the time people reaching out to me, law firm owners, how do I find an associate? They don’t even know where to start. So you’ve got a law firm out there. Let’s say either they’re a solo or maybe they have one or two attorneys. They need to find somebody. Obviously one option is they could call you, right? Sure. But what are some other options that they have to find candidates that actually work?
Steve:
Yeah, I mean, you work your network right off the bat, go for the low-hanging fruit work your network, go to local law school, career services offices, maybe people that somehow got left behind in the placement process or graduates that are looking to goes out to alumni that are looking to switch practice areas.
You can advertise on Indeed on LinkedIn. Just know those are active candidates. What do you mean by that? And I’m not trying to toot the horn of recruiters too much, but that’s the value that we really bring is we have relationships that we’ve cultivated for years, and we also go out and headhunt and attract passive talent. That’s fine where they are, but we’re able to pitch them on a compelling opportunity. They take the meeting, it ends up wowing them and they make a move.
If you just throw an ad up, you’re going to get people that are actively looking, half of them are actively looking probably for valid reasons. There are a subset that are looking for reasons that you wouldn’t want necessarily to hire them.
Darl:
Maybe they got let go or they’re getting forced out.
Steve:
Correct.
Darl:
Or job hopping. Yeah.
Steve:
Yeah.
Darl:
I mean, I’ll tell you, we’ve hired from a variety of places. We’ve used you a couple times. I’ve placed stuff on LinkedIn, Facebook, I’ve done the word of mouth, I’ve done it all. And again, it’s been a mixed bag. I mean, sometimes the online posting works, sometimes it draws nothing, absolutely nothing.
And I’m like, am I doing something wrong? Is there some bad glass door review about me out there somewhere that I didn’t know about? Because literally nobody’s applying. And then other times you put a listing up and it’s like an avalanche of resumes. What’s the best time of year for law firms to be looking? Is it end year to beginning a year when people are maybe looking to make a change?
Steve:
Generally January to May
Darl:
Because the associate got their bonus? Yeah. I’ll tell you, I had a lot of times where I would put a listing out in the summer or something or in the fall and you’re interviewing and it’s like, wow, it’s almost December and I’ve already billed all these hours. I get my bonus. And it’s like, again, that’s shortsighted thinking because if your bonus is, let’s say it’s $10,000, but you have an opportunity that could set you up for success for the rest of your career, what do you take? And that’s really tough.
Steve:
I think an important point is to be and to really know your business and what’s coming down the pike, and to start to prepare and not be reactive when you need someone, then you need someone, you and the people around you are drowning. And so then you’re kind of in panic mode and you’ve got to find someone quickly. So I’ve seen a lot of law firm owners post about this, about hire before you actually need them. If there’s not a full plate, but there’s of a plate and you’re confident that you’re going to be able to continue to grow the business, then probably pull the trigger.
Darl:
Yeah, no, and we’ve hired people that way on the attorney side and the non-attorney side where people have reached out to us and I’m like, wow. It’s really hard to find good people, especially on the paralegal and the legal support side to where you get them. You might want to be opportunistic, go ahead and scoop ’em up.
So one of the things that I think is really a challenge with the job listing is I have found that there is not a great correlation between resume and whether they’re a good fit at your firm. A lot of it has to do with culture. Are they a fed, and maybe this, I’m sure this applies to all law firms, but it’s particularly true at smaller law firms. They’ve got to fit your culture and it’s the benefit of a recruiter.
I mean, the person looking for an associate can reach out to the recruiter, say, this is the kind of person we’re looking for. And then the recruiter kind of filters that out. I mean, if you call the person and you’re like, this person seemed great, but after that conversation, I can tell they’re not going to be a good fit. You’re saving the attorney time
And a potential bad hire. But do you have any advice to lawyers when we’re okay, we’re in a situation where we know the resume isn’t going to be a great metric for whether they’re going to be a good fit. Should I do an interview that just asks complete non-legal questions and asks about their personality and work ethic? I mean, what should people do?
Steve:
So I’d say know yourself and your firm and know the characteristics that make up the lawyers that have been successful that you’ve hired. And then go mining with questions in your interview that mirror that through a behavioral interviewing process, which you may need, your folks may need some training on. We do that at Stone Search Partners as part and parcel if we help define the interview process and even do some training if folks need it.
So that’s one thing. And then I’ve actually had some clients that use industrial psychologists that take a baseline on their high potential people and come up with their whole thing. And it’s a more expensive process. It’s a more laborious process. It turns some people off on the
Darl:
Canada side. I was going to say that. Yeah. I mean, I’ve seen people do that with non-attorney staff and attorneys where they create this psychological test and there’s whole companies out there that advertise this, that they will do this. And when you talk to people that go through it that almost universally, they tell me it feels weird. Don’t, a lot of times it’s like before they even get the interview, it’s like, Hey, come and do this test. It just feels weird. I don’t know.
It feels like the lawyer’s sitting there in their ivory tower being like, if you want to come and work with me, you have to pass these hurdles and do these things when it should be collaborative and welcoming and that sort of thing. I mean, I like to interview people and just ask all sorts of weird questions like the last book you read, what types of things you like to do in your spare time movies to try and get an idea of who they are.
Again, we’ve hired people who’ve looked great on paper and have not worked out. And on the flip side, we’ve hired people who haven’t looked as great on paper, who’ve been awesome. And so you’ve got to to do that interview and go through that. You have any red flags that you advise law firm owners on that, hey, this is something that you might want to avoid?
Steve:
I mean, certainly a lot of movement within a short period of time. If their level of experience doesn’t really match their years, what’s going on with that? Just anything that just seems out of place really, or erratic. I mean, as lawyers, God, we couldn’t be more linear people, so it’s pretty easy to spot someone that’s got a little veer here or veer there. And again, lots of times very viable explanations, illness in the family, something going on you got to take care of, but poke at it a bit. You can do so respectively. Yeah.
Darl:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we do that. There’s a gap or Hey, what was going on during that time period? Was there anything? A lot of times they’ll say it’s a personal issue and it was a family member that was sick or whatever the case may be. But you want to find out if it was, oh yeah, I got fired and it took me three months to find a job. It’s like, I will tell you one thing. I want to get your perspective on this before I tell you mine. What’s your thought on references and people calling references?
Steve:
I think largely it’s a waste.
Darl:
No, very first person I hired was a Craigslist paralegal. Apparently when I say Craigslist, they’re illegal. Put a job listing on Craigslist. This is how far I’ve come. Steve, I went from hiring off Craigslist for $10 an hour, but she had references on there and I called them and they talked her up. She was the greatest thing ever. And she was terrible, absolutely terrible.
When I say terrible, not a terrible person, but just not a great fit for what I needed at all and wasn’t really capable. And I found the same thing with attorneys as well. And I think some of it comes from people just wanting to be nice. They don’t want to say anything bad that’s going to ruin somebody’s career opportunities. So I don’t think you’re ever really getting the full story.
Steve:
And you don’t list someone as a reference unless you fully expect them to say nice things about you. Where I’ve seen references pan out is when somebody puts a reference down and they call and they just get lit up and it’s like, well, you didn’t even have the good judgment to call the reference and say, Hey, I’m going to list you as a reference. What do you think you might say?
Darl:
Yeah, that’s a good one. Yeah, I mean, I have found too that, I mean, even when they’re not listed as references, if it’s just a law firm on there on there, and I know somebody, I will tell you this, if you know somebody who works there, a lot of times they will give you a better insight into what happened. If it’s somebody you went to law school with and you call ’em up and say, Hey, I saw this person worked at your firm, and they’ll be like, oh yeah, it was this huge drama.
Steve:
There’s back channeling that goes on, and most of the time, 99% of the time confidentiality is still respected. But yeah, I’d be careful with some of that.
Darl:
And I mean too, if you call and they say, I’m not allowed to talk about that, it’s a red flag, or I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement, it’s like, wait, wait. No,
Steve:
I mean more firms now though, they’re just doing the neutral
Darl:
Only we
Steve:
Confirm dates of employment, et cetera. And I, I’ve got a couple of firms I’m working with on career transition counseling and coaching. So they’re being let go for whatever reason. Some of it is work-related performance, some of it’s not. So you have people that are in there that maybe you wouldn’t want to hire, and then some people that you would want to pick right up. And the firm’s only willing to give a neutral reference. So what I tell the lawyers in that respect is particularly the ones that are good lawyers and not being let go for any work performances, get your narrative down and own it and wear it like a comfortable leather coat that you’ve worn for years.
If somebody tells you a story and they feel comfortable and not defensive about it, it doesn’t raise as many red flags as if, yeah, and we came to the conclusion this just wasn’t a good fit, and we both decided to part ways rather than, and it was uncomfortable and this and that. So know how to tell your story.
Darl:
Yeah, the biggest advice that I would give to employers too is to trust your gut. If you interview somebody and you have some reservation, don’t put it aside. Don’t try and get confirmation to make you feel better about that reservation. Just trust your gut and a lot of times, whatever your gut’s telling you is the right thing.
What about flexibility, remote work versus hybrid? I think to recruit people now you have to have some level of flexibility. You should, because you’re competing with law firms that may be offering either fully remote or some sort of hybrid structure. We do a hybrid, we do a three two, and we have a few people. My paralegal lives in Loganville, so she comes in one day a week. We’ve got a couple of employees that live out of state, so they’re of course fully remote.
But I think that that’s a good balance because you’re getting people in the office enough, it helps build the culture, it helps build the mentoring. But a lot of lawyers especially and old school lawyers, I think of myself sometimes as an old school lawyer, think you got to be in the office. What’s your current advice to employers about their work from home schedules and policies? Treat people
Steve:
Like adults. There are actually a fair amount of old school partners that loved when the pandemic hit and the return to office mandates their firms are putting in place, aren’t working because they’re not going to show up, have some flexibility if you can do a hybrid, but you’ve got to get buy-in amongst everybody.
You don’t want the young associates coming in and there’s no one to train or mentor them, and that’s waste of time for everyone. But again, I think treating people like adults and having some degree of flexibility and a hybrid nature of work, and maybe it comes with a little time because you also want to encourage, I think younger lawyers to be in the office more, not a hundred percent, but the best way to get the best cases and to learn the practice from experienced practitioners is to work alongside them, not through a screen.
Darl:
Sure. Yeah. And I mean, sometimes I have cases with lawyers on the other side and they’re very inexperienced, and some of the things that happen in the case are just real head scratchers. And I’ve talked about it with other plaintiff’s lawyer friends about what seems like an overall decline in the quality of lawyering on the defense side. And pretty, my defense lawyer friends listening, it’s not you. You’re doing great.
But no, seriously, I mean there are some people where you’re like, what is going on here? And I think what we’ve attributed it to is a lack of mentoring and training that just, it’s getting worse. People are bouncing around from firm to firm. Law firms are looking at these associates. It’s like commodities. You’re no different than anybody else. I just need a warm body in here to fill this role. And then that’s why you get people taking needlessly long depositions.
I had this funny post on LinkedIn yesterday about something. I was reading a deposition transcript and our client was in a car wreck and she treated for three years and it is still treating, and there were questions about certain dates of physical therapy. And she’s like, I don’t remember the exact dates. It’s been a long time. It’s been three years. I don’t remember the exact dates. And she’s like, do you have the records? She’s like, I do have the records, but I need to get on the record what you remember. It’s like, no, you don’t. That’s not a thing. But then also when they were asking her about the wreck and where it happened, so she lives in Tampa, she’s driving on 75 with her family and gets in a wreck, and the lawyer’s asking her where on the interstate was it? Was it here?
Was it there? What was it close to? Did you see any landmarks? Like a Chick-fil-A sign? The police report has the latitude and longitude. It is incredibly accurate on where this wreck took place. And it’s like, I’m like, you read it and it’s almost like he must not have the police report, but of course he has it and he’s read it and it’s just the strangest thing.
But you see stuff like that time and again, and there’s this, it’s just an inability to see the big picture. On the flip side, I’ll give a shout out to what I think is a great defense firm is Huff Powell and Bailey, we had a trial with them last year and they do a great job of training and mentoring their associates. In fact, one of the defense witnesses who was an expert on a key issue, they let a younger attorney do the direct examination of that expert.
It was her first time ever doing it, a direct examination of an expert. And even the judge told the partner, he is like a lot of people wouldn’t have done that, have allowed that to happen. And so I think the law firms that are going to do the best in this sort of new world and new structure are going to be the ones that are willing to train and mentor, but then also give a little bit of a leeway to understand it’s not going to be the way I would’ve done it necessarily, but you’ve got to let them sort of grow into that role. So when it comes to retaining people, what are some best practices that law firms can employ to make sure their employees are actually happy and stay with them?
Steve:
Yeah, I think checking in with your people on a regular basis is the first, and not just assuming that everything is hunky dory, have your review cycle, but a lot of informal it going, what’s going on? What are you working on? Challenges, successes, talk to ’em about how they’re doing, assess their mood, assess their body language. You can get a lot from that
And know the market. So there are, since the pandemic, probably no doubt, 400% increase in recruiters. So your folks are getting called, so know that they’re being recruited. So know the market, and I’ve had a lot of smaller firms that have had to do this, and man, it hurts, but you have to do it. They’re hiring a new person from me and they’ve got to pay ’em X.
It does not align with the internal equities that are already existing within the firm. They have to revamp their entire compensation system. But sometimes you got to do what you got to do, so know the market. And a simple question is, is there anything that we could be doing better to support you?
Darl:
Yep. That’s a great question. It’s funny on the law firm compensation side of things, I cannot tell you how many people, I mean, I would imagine people on the bigger law firms are probably more plugged into it, but on the plaintiff’s lawyer side, a lot of times they don’t have a clue. I mean, one, they don’t have a clue what people on the defense side are making or these big firms, but they don’t have a clue how other people at plaintiff’s firms are being compensated. And so their frame of reference is what they got paid
Steve:
30 years
Darl:
Ago.
Steve:
Oh my God. I had this conversation the other day with one of ’em that was exact, well, when I was here 30, and I was like,
Darl:
Okay, yes, I hear that all the time. Me too. I hear people say, well, when I was graduating, when I graduated from law school, I’m like, you graduated from law school in like 85.
Steve:
Hey, I was in Tampa in 96. My first job was right around 40 grand. I don’t think that’s market
Darl:
Now. It shouldn’t be maybe the public defender’s office. But yeah, the other thing that is interesting to me when I’m talking to lawyers is it’s interesting how they don’t even know what new college grads are earning, right? I mean, it also, that applies to the non-attorney staff who at a lot of law firms are just underpaid.
We do our best to pay above market, and we’ve raised our pay consistently, but it, it’s easy to get in that rut where things just sort of operate this way. You don’t want to upset things. You want to keep it level, but one cost of living has gone up a lot just since 2020. And two, you do run into that when you have to recruit people and you find out, Hey, this person’s earning X, I can’t bring them in as a new person and then be the highest paid person here. That’s not fair to the other
Steve:
People. No, people talk.
Darl:
Yeah. And again, I mean, they’re going to find out, but even if they didn’t find out, it just wouldn’t sit well with me. And so you’ve got to be flexible and revamp your entire structure, and sometimes you have to do that. Well, I’ve got one final question for you, and this can be one thing, three things, five things. Any parting advice for law firm owners or employers about things that you just, maybe it’s 10 commandments or five commandments or whatever, where you’re like, these things are just basic that are not being done or that you need to do?
Steve:
Well, I mean, we’ve talked about a lot of ’em about training and mentoring and being flexible, but I think it comes down to caring about your people. I know that sounds cheesy and cliche, but listen, the law is a stressful profession and everybody gets caught up in it. But at the end of the day, we’re all facing our own challenges. And to have someone that you’re working with 8, 9, 10 hours a day, that at least you feel that they have something invested in you. I mean, that’s half the battle on the retention side of the coin right there.
Darl:
Yep. That’s great advice that a lot of that gets into the firm culture, right? Being sure that you’re set up in a way to support your people. Well, thanks for joining us. Steve. If people want to find you and reach out to you, whether it’s to use you as a recruiter, as a coach, or maybe to look at some of the other services you offer, what’s the best way that they can find you?
Steve:
I’m at www.stonesearchpartners.com. It’s sstone@stonesearchpartners.com. And obviously check me out on LinkedIn. You can reach me there, too.
Darl:
Excellent. Well, thanks for joining us, Steve. This has been a very thoughtful discussion. It is very educational for me to talk to you. Every time I talk to you, I feel like I learned something new. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in to the Championing Justice podcast. You can follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or YouTube so you can see our latest episodes when they go live.
Thank you.